RAK Group

[Rainbowwand]

As you may have noticed in another thread i received an unxepected card in the post the other day, as i said in the post it was really lovely to receive something i had not expected so wondered what others thought about starting a RAK, Random Act of Kindness group, not sure how it would run but perhaps something along the lines of you commit to send one card to one other person in the group, we would need to work out a fair way so that each member received only one card, so what do you think, good idea, rubish idea, how would we work it, over to you :D

[Anne]

I really like the thought behind this RW, but I'm not sure how it would work. It wouldn't really be very random would it? And I'm a bit concerned that with the numbers in the monthly swap dwindling, that you may not get many takers. Although the card swap issue may just be a seasonal thing (certainly is with me at the moment) and it will hopefully pick up again in the new year.

Here endeth my ramblings. :D

[Rainbowwand]

I really like the thought behind this RW, but I'm not sure how it would work. It wouldn't really be very random would it? And I'm a bit concerned that with the numbers in the monthly swap dwindling, that you may not get many takers. Although the card swap issue may just be a seasonal thing (certainly is with me at the moment) and it will hopefully pick up again in the new year.

Here endeth my ramblings. :D

Its the how to run it that was bugging me too, it was just so nice to get that unexpected card, i just wanted to share the feeling as it were :D

[Wellington]

I know where you're coming from RW - but as Anne says, an organised group doesn't make it very random I suppose...Hmmm

There's one possible way which is for people to sign up for a year & each member sends as many cards as they want, whenever they want to the Group Organiser (with a stamp on, but no address) who then forwards the card on to a member of the group, marking against a list so they know who sent what & who's had a RAK?

Nah...also not very random...humph...

[Rainbowwand]

I suppose we could just do a RAK any time we like without having to have anything organised, i just dread to think that someone would be made to feel truly unloved because no one ever sent them anything :(

[Anne]

I know where you're coming from RW - but as Anne says, an organised group doesn't make it very random I suppose...Hmmm

There's one possible way which is for people to sign up for a year & each member sends as many cards as they want, whenever they want to the Group Organiser (with a stamp on, but no address) who then forwards the card on to a member of the group, marking against a list so they know who sent what & who's had a RAK?

Nah...also not very random...humph...

I think that would work quite well, Welly, as the recipient would have no idea when something was going to be sent to them. Only problem would be that the organiser would never get anything.


I suppose we could just do a RAK any time we like without having to have anything organised, i just dread to think that someone would be made to feel truly unloved because no one ever sent them anything :(

Yes. Don't want anyone feeling unloved. Your sentiments behind wanting to do this are lovely though, RW. :)

[Anne]

I think that would work quite well, Welly, as the recipient would have no idea when something was going to be sent to them. Only problem would be that the organiser would never get anything.

Sorry for quoting myself. :o

We could do it such that each time we sent a card or cards to the organiser, we also sent them a card too.

[Rainbowwand]

Sorry for quoting myself. :o

We could do it such that each time we sent a card or cards to the organiser, we also sent them a card too.

Makes it more of a chore then if you have to send two doesnt it, and more costly if the same card needs posting twice, perhaps i will just occasionly and randomly select someone and send them a card, anything else just seems to be making too big of a deal about it :)

[Marie]

well I'm still making my first cards but would like to join in the card swap once I'm a bit more confident about their quality! I'm sure that more will join once teh site becomes more established as well. But I know what you mean about the RAK. I've always thought that kindness is a very under-rated virtue, especially in these materialisitic times. So I do hope that you enjoy the card and teh sentiment with which it was sent.

[Anne]

well I'm still making my first cards but would like to join in the card swap once I'm a bit more confident about their quality! I'm sure that more will join once teh site becomes more established as well. But I know what you mean about the RAK. I've always thought that kindness is a very under-rated virtue, especially in these materialisitic times. So I do hope that you enjoy the card and teh sentiment with which it was sent.

This forum has been going since March 2007! Prior to that a large number of us were members of shoppingtelly.com (many of us still are) and we had a craft section there, which is where Rainbowwand's monthly swap started. There was a big crash in June 2008 and it had to be started again from scratch, which is why it looks as if it's relatively new. :)

[gill71]

RW that is so thoughtful to want to share the experience of a RAK! I sometimes get an unexpected handmade card from my sister, which always brightens my day.
It would be lovely to have something like that on here:)

[Phree]

I love the thought behind the RAK list idea RW, but as others have said the actual formalising of it into a list kind of takes away the "randomness" concept. Then there is the "feeling unloved" bit - I only have the addresses of people who are birthday swappers or have been allocated to me as my "swapee" in monthly swaps and because of that, even if I had the time I don't have the information to send a card to every single CT member and some would be left out - that can be a dangerous place to go, peoples feelings get hurt so easily online and it may not occur to people who are feeling hurt that in fact as they have never joined a swap, or only joined 1 or 2 then not everyone knows where to send them a card.

It was a lovely thought though, and if anyone can come up with a problem free way of operating it then I'm all for it.

Oh and re swap numbers dropping of.... I am sure that is because it's so close to Christmas now and we are all worried about having all the cards we need for that ready in time.



well I'm still making my first cards but would like to join in the card swap once I'm a bit more confident about their quality! I'm sure that more will join once teh site becomes more established as well. But I know what you mean about the RAK. I've always thought that kindness is a very under-rated virtue, especially in these materialisitic times. So I do hope that you enjoy the card and teh sentiment with which it was sent.

Marie, um dips has called me this before, so what the heck, Im gonna be blunt..... who gives a rats ass if your cards are not quite perfect!

We were ALL beginners and indeed we still are cuz we try new stuff - the card I sent to RW being an example cuz that was MY first attempt to chalk over an embossed design and trust me the card is NOT as perfect as I would have liked it to be.... anyhow the point it this... we don't CARE if you are still learning... so if you feel like joining in swap go right ahead and get your name down cuz what we DO care about is that people feel welcome to join no matter how long they have been crafting - the swap is for EVERYONE and a loving crafted "beginners" card is every bit as acceptable as something that is so technique heavy it looks like the maker must have been crafting for years!

[pyjama princess]

I belong to a RAK group on another forum where we have around 40 members.

This is how it works:

When someone wants to join they pm the organiser with their address details.
The organiser works out who is posting to who (sadly this means they know who will be sending a card to them).
The organiser pms each member on the last day of the month with the name and address of their RAKer.
Everyone agrees to send their card by 21st of the month.
We also have a section on the forum where we can post to say that we have sent our cards and post our thanks to the person who have sent us a card.This also helps the organiser to work out who hasn't sent a card or isn't thanking people for cards. If this happens a couple of times the member is asked to leave as it's not fair on the people not receiving cards.
Members can ask ahead of time to drop out of the group for a while and join again when they are able to.

It's been going now for almost 3 years and runs relatively smoothly, although there is quite a bit of work for the organiser to do with 40 members.

Hope this gives someone some ideas on how to have a RAK group here.

[sheilaj]

well but imho, that's a swap not an rak

[Phree]

well but imho, that's a swap not an rak

I am assuming you mean the post by PJP - post #13 - and yes it sounds exactly like our Secret Swaps, the Creepy one we did for halloween and the Secret Santa one that Lorraine is organising right now, except there is no guessing game such as we have regarding the maker of the card.

A RAK is sent with no expectation of the random act of kindness being returned - it's sent because you think perhaps the person needs to be cheered up when bad things have been happening, or maybe because they have been unwell, or maybe just because you made the card and you think they might like it. That is what RAK's are all about - giving with no expectation of receiving something in return.

[LorraineJ]

How about everyone who wants to take part in the RAK thing, registers with the organiser (presumably Raoinbowwand). The thing that bothers me about people's addresses being freely available, is it COULD lay us open to some nutter. So I suggest that anyone wanting to take part, gives their details to Rainbowwand, who in turn circulates their address to everyone who has given their details AND taken part in the minimum of one swap of any kind.

Under the data protection act, you have to state that you are holding addresses and the circumstances in which they will be used and signing up, is a way of maintaining Rainbowwand's safety legally. I am sorry if this comes over as being a bit snotty, its not intended to be, its just that I don't want anyone opening an unintentional can of worms and landing someone in trouble.

[Marie]

Marie, um dips has called me this before, so what the heck, Im gonna be blunt..... who gives a rats ass if your cards are not quite perfect!
I guess I just wouldn't want to be disappointed after getting one of my first efforts! But you're right, Phree, we all have to start and it would give me something to practice for! And as a beginner, i'd love to get cards from others and see what they are making for inspiration.
But Lorraine raises a good point about security for personal information. I live on my own and I'm very wary about giving details like my address away. That in itself could put me off.

[Julie]

Eeek you can all shout at me in a minute

But I think a RAK is something done off the cuff and something done in private. I have received lots of wonderful gestures/surprises off the members here but I have never thought to post about them, I just prefer to do a private thank you.

[LorraineJ]

Eeek you can all shout at me in a minute

But I think a RAK is something done off the cuff and something done in private. I have received lots of wonderful gestures/surprises off the members here but I have never thought to post about them, I just prefer to do a private thank you.

I am not going to shout at you Julie, if you want to thank someone privately, its up to you. I think what Rainbowwand is thinking of, is trying to work out a way of making names and addresses of people that aren't in the cardswaps, but at the same time keeping their personal information safe, but you have to be able to know the info first.

Perhaps we ought to think in terms of doing something thats password protected, for which we might need Graham's help. A lot of our members live on their own and we don't want to find an innocent, fun RAK swap being infiltrated by a not very nice element.

[Phree]

Lorraine there are various exclusions to the Data Protection act -for example clubs are not covered when they hold list of members names and addresses - I used to hold this information when I was secretary of my local Dog Agility club, and no doubt the current secretary does likewise. I rather suspect RW (or whoever is co-ordinating RAK, or any other kind of swap would likewise be excluded as this is sort of like being in a club IYSWIM.

As for online security, Marie you are correct to be concerned about whom you give your address to. The format for the regular monthly swap is that once RW publishes a of who is all taking part is this : you send a Private Message to the person you are to send you card to and request their postal address, likewise you will receive a PM from the person who is to send to you requesting yours - repsonses are made via PM and not via the public area of the forum. At NO TIME are members addresses EVER published on the forum itself where any one could read them.

[LorraineJ]

Lorraine there are various exclusions to the Data Protection act -for example clubs are not covered when they hold list of members names and addresses - I used to hold this information when I was secretary of my local Dog Agility club, and no doubt the current secretary does likewise. I rather suspect RW (or whoever is co-ordinating RAK, or any other kind of swap would likewise be excluded as this is sort of like being in a club IYSWIM.

As for online security, Marie you are correct to be concerned about whom you give your address to. The format for the regular monthly swap is that once RW publishes a of who is all taking part is this : you send a Private Message to the person you are to send you card to and request their postal address, likewise you will receive a PM from the person who is to send to you requesting yours - repsonses are made via PM and not via the public area of the forum. At NO TIME are members addresses EVER published on the forum itself where any one could read them.


We don't know this to be a fact Phree and I think its better to go on the side of caution when you are dealing with legal matters. I know for a fact that its not illegal to hold such files, but it is illegal to share information with people without their knowledge or permission. For card swaps, if you sign up to a card swap, its agreed that the people concerned will have people's addresses to send cards to via PMs. Its different again, though participants know that their addy will only be shared within the birthday card swap group and no further. The Secret Santa swap for example needs to be abundantly transparent, as you cannot hold info on your computer about others without them knowing about it, its illegal and whats worse, passing such info on.

For this reason, members may well have noticed that I always make it very clear that I have a list on my computer of names and addresses of people that are included in the three birthday swap groups I am a member of and also have taken part in past ATC and Secret Santa swaps I have organised. If they don't want me to retain this information, they must tell me. The chances are that I will never run into problems, but its protecting myself from possibly being sued.

I think that password protecting a data base is the only way to go, being 100% certain that you details will only be passed on to a select group and participants understand that they aren't to pass the password over to non members. If we don't know exactly who else is on the data base, we can have no idea that a surprise is coming our way.

[satincollie]

I'm sorry but this group is intended to be a friendly group of like minded crafters who wish to share their creations and just as the data protection act doesnt apply to anyone keeping an address book for friends and family then it doesn't apply to this either. I am also at present the secretary of a KC licenced Canine society and I keep a list of our members names and addresses no I do not distribute them and never would however they are not classed the same as bank details or medical details
Exemption taken from the data protection act.

36. Domestic purposes Personal data processed by an individual only for the purposes of that individual’s personal, family or household affairs (including recreational purposes) are exempt from the data protection principles and the provisions of Parts II and III.

I think the recreational part covers us perfectly.
Best Wishes
Gill

[LorraineJ]

I'm sorry but this group is intended to be a friendly group of like minded crafters who wish to share their creations and just as the data protection act doesnt apply to anyone keeping an address book for friends and family then it doesn't apply to this either. I am also at present the secretary of a KC licenced Canine society and I keep a list of our members names and addresses no I do not distribute them and never would however they are not classed the same as bank details or medical details
Exemption taken from the data protection act.

36. Domestic purposes Personal data processed by an individual only for the purposes of that individual’s personal, family or household affairs (including recreational purposes) are exempt from the data protection principles and the provisions of Parts II and III.

I think the recreational part covers us perfectly.
Best Wishes
Gill


I am sorry but I beg to differ on this one. Obviously as Secretary of this or that, you'd never divulge private infomation, otherwise you'd be in breach of your position. Yes this forum is supposed to be friendly, but it does not account for possible rogue elements that trawl the internet looking for weaknesses. All I am saying is, for our own safety, we have to make sure we only knowingly trade real names and addresses with people we know. Its well known that some people use the internet, pertaining to be not quite what they seem.

[sheilaj]

Can I suggest that the people who want to do this get together and decide among themselves how they will be happy to do it? That way it will stay in proportion and not take over the whole list?

[LorraineJ]

This is the legal extraction and does reflect without room for argument that data handling is key.

Plain-language summary of key principles
This section provides a quick overview of what the Key Principles of information-handling practice mean. The Key Principles themselves are discussed below in the context of their definition in law.

Data may only be used for the specific purposes for which it was collected.
Data must not be disclosed to other parties without the consent of the individual whom it is about, unless there is legislation or other overriding legitimate reason to share the information (for example, the prevention or detection of crime). It is an offence for Other Parties to obtain this personal data without authorisation.
Individuals have a right of access to the information held about them, subject to certain exceptions (for example, information held for the prevention or detection of crime).
Personal information may be kept for no longer than is necessary.
Personal information may not be transmitted outside the EEA unless the individual whom it is about has consented or adequate protection is in place, for example by the use of a prescribed form of contract to govern the transmission of the data.
Subject to some exceptions for organisations that only do very simple processing, and for domestic use, all entities that process personal information must register with the Information Commissioner.
Entities holding personal information are required to have adequate security measures in place. Those include technical measures (such as firewalls) and organisational measures (such as staff training).
Also subjects are allowed/have the right to make changes to wrong information


[edit] Personal data
The Data Protection Act covers any data which can be used to identify a living or of a ethical race person. This includes names, birthday and anniversary dates, addresses, telephone numbers, Fax numbers, e-mail addresses etc. It only applies to that data which is held, or intended to be held, on computers ('equipment operating automatically in response to instructions given for that purpose'), or held in a 'relevant filing system'.

It should be noted that an ordinary paper diary can be classified as a 'relevant filing system' if it can be demonstrated that the diary is used to support commercial activities (eg, a Salesperson's diary).



So in short, it is illegal to pass on any information regarding addresses without consent. Also when we all signed up to this site, we expected Graham to keep our private details just that private If you sign up on any site, you have the same security, its a legal requirement, no-one is above the law

[Pam]

I'm probably being thick here or have missed a piece of vital information but why is this any different from our Birthday swaps?


Easy English please no legal jargon. lol

[LorraineJ]

I'm probably being thick here or have missed a piece of vital information but why is this any different from our Birthday swaps?


Easy English please no legal jargon. lol

OK Pam trying to make this jargon free, and no you aren't being thick at all lol .


For the birthday swaps, participants know that the names, addresses and birth dates will be circulated to the other participants for the life of the swap. In practice, information is retained from swap to swap and provided all parties know about it, thats fine legally.

With the Secret Santa swap (for example), other people other than those that take part in the birthday swaps have their details retained. From the leglislation, I or anyone else in my position am obliged to reveal that I hold this information.

Thing is, with the RAK swap, how do we ensure that this information remains within a set number of people, ie the participants. Being a RAK is just that but it has to remain secure. We could do it so that everyone sees who else is on the list that have signed up. As I see it, the very minimum before joining that list is one swap of any kind, to check a newbie out before they are allowed to join. The chances are that newbies are exactly what they seem, but just suppose they aren't and they then gain access to a list of birth dates, names and addresses, we have a major security problem on our hands - identity theft is all too common these days.

You may well think whats Lorraine banging on about, its only swapping a few bits of paper, but I have fallen victim to this kind of thing in the past and its very difficult to get yourself out of it, despite the fact you are the innocent party.

[Winspiration]

You're right, Pam - in essence, it isn't any different. What a shame that such a lovely idea to start off the thread has become mired down in legal 'what ifs' :(

I do understand Lorraine's concerns about someone unscrupulous joining the group, this could equally happen with a birthday swap (but happily, hasn't, so far). In all aspects of life, we can either assess the situation and take some risks and live our lives, or do nothing. I'm not trying to be glib about it, simply pointing out that most actions carry some associated risk.

Part of the essence of any swap group is that you consent when joining to let others in the group have your address. My law degree is rather old and rusty now, but I can't see a basis to sue, if consent was freely given.

[LorraineJ]

You're right, Pam - in essence, it isn't any different. What a shame that such a lovely idea to start off the thread has become mired down in legal 'what ifs' :(

I do understand Lorraine's concerns about someone unscrupulous joining the group, this could equally happen with a birthday swap (but happily, hasn't, so far). In all aspects of life, we can either assess the situation and take some risks and live our lives, or do nothing. I'm not trying to be glib about it, simply pointing out that most actions carry some associated risk.

Part of the essence of any swap group is that you consent when joining to let others in the group have your address. My law degree is rather old and rusty now, but I can't see a basis to sue, if consent was freely given.

With the birthday swap, there is a gap between a person joining, finding their feet and becoming involved. I think the gap should also extend to RAK members, so many posts and taking part in at least one swap, before
they are allowed to join. That gives the rest of the members a chance to suss out whether someone has joined to cause trouble and if need be report them in whatever shape or form, before any real damage is done.

I do think RAK as an idea is a lovely one, but the practicalities bother me.

[Pam]

Thanks Lorraine and Wins.

Wins your post is exactly how I saw it.

I can see that there could be a problem with new or not very active members but surely we could overcome that.

[Rainbowwand]

You're right, Pam - in essence, it isn't any different. What a shame that such a lovely idea to start off the thread has become mired down in legal 'what ifs' :(

I do understand Lorraine's concerns about someone unscrupulous joining the group, this could equally happen with a birthday swap (but happily, hasn't, so far). In all aspects of life, we can either assess the situation and take some risks and live our lives, or do nothing. I'm not trying to be glib about it, simply pointing out that most actions carry some associated risk.

Part of the essence of any swap group is that you consent when joining to let others in the group have your address. My law degree is rather old and rusty now, but I can't see a basis to sue, if consent was freely given.

Exactly, i will keep my big mouth well and truly shut in future, speaking only for myself here but i no longer have any interest in such a group :(

[Phree]

Lorraine, my degree, a BA in Information Management required me to study the Data Protection Act - now I actually was the top student in my year during first year and one of the exam questions I chose to answer was about the Data Protection Act. So first off let me say I am not entirely without some knowlege of the act, however the act has been updated since my college days which were in early 1990's). Secondly your keep emphasizing storage of information on a computer. The Act itself was updated in 1998 to incude paper based storage also - prior to that it had only referred to electronically stored data, so no only are computer held data affected but so would any typed or hand written list of swappers names and addresses be covered IF this was relevant.

However the act of joining for a swap and giving your name to the organiser in itself gives a form of permission to the organiser to pass on your address as relevant to the swap itself - it to who ever is supposed to be sending a card to you.

Now you need to refer to the Exemptions from the Act - ie data held which is exempt - here is the relevant part of the act :

"36 Domestic purposes Personal data processed by an individual only for the purposes of that individual’s personal, family or household affairs (including recreational purposes) are exempt from the data protection principles and the provisions of Parts II and III."

Source :
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/Acts1998/ukpga_19980029_en_5#pt4-l1g37


I would ask that you note that this includes data held for recreational purposes - ie the membership list of a Dog Agility club, or in our case the recreational activity of participating in an organised swap.

So I would say you and also to forum members, particularly those such as RW, Anne, and Sam who are swap organisers and who may be worried that by holding the swap records they have actually done something wrong - there is NO NEED to get in a stramash about this. Ladies we ARE NOT breaking the law. When a forum member joins a swap group they are giving permission for their address to be given to others who are in the swap where the address is being passed on for the purposes of the swap. The problem comes around if, for example, I was to supply one of your addresses to Fabyon who is no longer a member of any of our groups - I cannot do that without first seeking the permission of the person who's address it is.

[LorraineJ]

Lorraine, my degree, a BA in Information Management required me to study the Data Protection Act - now I actually was the top student in my year during first year and one of the exam questions I chose to answer was about the Data Protection Act. So first off let me say I am not entirely without some knowlege of the act, however the act has been updated since my college days which were in early 1990's). Secondly your keep emphasizing storage of information on a computer. The Act itself was updated in 1998 to incude paper based storage also - prior to that it had only referred to electronically stored data, so no only are computer held data affected but so would any typed or hand written list of swappers names and addresses be covered IF this was relevant.

However the act of joining for a swap and giving your name to the organiser in itself gives a form of permission to the organiser to pass on your address as relevant to the swap itself - it to who ever is supposed to be sending a card to you.

Now you need to refer to the Exemptions from the Act - ie data held which is exempt - here is the relevant part of the act :

"36 Domestic purposes Personal data processed by an individual only for the purposes of that individual’s personal, family or household affairs (including recreational purposes) are exempt from the data protection principles and the provisions of Parts II and III."

Source :
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/Acts1998/ukpga_19980029_en_5#pt4-l1g37


I would ask that you note that this includes data held for recreational purposes - ie the membership list of a Dog Agility club, or in our case the recreational activity of participating in an organised swap.

So I would say you and also to forum members, particularly those such as RW, Anne, and Sam who are swap organisers and who may be worried that by holding the swap records they have actually done something wrong - there is NO NEED to get in a stramash about this. Ladies we ARE NOT breaking the law. When a forum member joins a swap group they are giving permission for their address to be given to others who are in the swap where the address is being passed on for the purposes of the swap. The problem comes around if, for example, I was to supply one of your addresses to Fabyon who is no longer a member of any of our groups - I cannot do that without first seeking the permission of the person who's address it is.



Phree that was not the point I was making, I was not saying that keeping records you were breaking the law. I was concerned about the security issue, nothing more. Fact is, I have done nothing wrong, I have a mind of my own and won't be brow beaten just to fit in.

[Phree]

The fact is Lorraine this forum is not entirely a social group, Graham has a vested interest in as the forum itself makes money via the adverts that appear, now that makes it a business, even if the revenue is barely sufficient to pay the running costs. However that leads me to the issues for Graham if we were to demand a secure, password protected area on the site. I suspect it may force Graham to register CT under the terms of the Data Protection act, however this may be something he has to do already - I have never looked into any legal obligations which Graham is obliged to meet as our forum owner.

Personally I really don't see what all the fuss is about. I joined a birthday swap back in the day when we were on ST - I had been a member for about 5 mins. Artysam organised her group when she was a comparitive newbie to CT. The Halloween swap, well we had a brand new member in that one, I took some precautions about that, as I have been bitten in a swap before where someone signed up, received their swap but never sent one. The precaution I took was to fix the supposedly random list to ensure that if anyone got bitten it was me and not one of the other swappers as I simple switched a couple of names in the random draw to make it a straight 2 way swap between me and the new person - I guess if that person is reading this they will know who they are and I trust they won't be offended at my safeguarding the other swappers who were in the swap - you had only posted 2 or 3 times when you joined the swap so I felt it best that I was the one to risk being disappointed if you dropped out of the committment because sadly that kind of thing does happen in forum swaps from time to time.

What I would say is this, RW suggested that she would co-ordinate such a RAK group, we have trusted RW in the past to act sensibly with our information so why would we not trust her now?

[LorraineJ]

The fact is Lorraine this forum is not entirely a social group, Graham has a vested interest in as the forum itself makes money via the adverts that appear, now that makes it a business, even if the revenue is barely sufficient to pay the running costs. However that leads me to the issues for Graham if we were to demand a secure, password protected area on the site. I suspect it may force Graham to register CT under the terms of the Data Protection act, however this may be something he has to do already - I have never looked into any legal obligations which Graham is obliged to meet as our forum owner.

Personally I really don't see what all the fuss is about. I joined a birthday swap back in the day when we were on ST - I had been a member for about 5 mins. Artysam organised her group when she was a comparitive newbie to CT. The Halloween swap, well we had a brand new member in that one, I took some precautions about that, as I have been bitten in a swap before where someone signed up, received their swap but never sent one. The precaution I took was to fix the supposedly random list to ensure that if anyone got bitten it was me and not one of the other swappers as I simple switched a couple of names in the random draw to make it a straight 2 way swap between me and the new person - I guess if that person is reading this they will know who they are and I trust they won't be offended at my safeguarding the other swappers who were in the swap - you had only posted 2 or 3 times when you joined the swap so I felt it best that I was the one to risk being disappointed if you dropped out of the committment because sadly that kind of thing does happen in forum swaps from time to time.

What I would say is this, RW suggested that she would co-ordinate such a RAK group, we have trusted RW in the past to act sensibly with our information so why would we not trust her now?

For goodness sake, please don't drag Rainbowwand's name through the mud, I for one trust her implicitly, what you appear to be incinuating never even crossed my mind.

As far as I am concerned, I have said what I believe, you are free to agree or disagree with me as you wish. It still bothers me allowing newbies free access to personal information such as real names, addresses and birth dates; that could be enough to cause mischief financially for any one of us. I am not saying don't allow them to take part ever, just initially have them make a few posts so we can get a feel of whether they are spammers or other trouble makers.

[Anne]

As far as I am concerned, I have said what I believe, you are free to agree or disagree with me as you wish. It still bothers me allowing newbies free access to personal information such as real names, addresses and birth dates; that could be enough to cause mischief financially for any one of us. I am not saying don't allow them to take part ever, just initially have them make a few posts so we can get a feel of whether they are spammers or other trouble makers.

We were all newbies once Lorraine. OK, we may have been around st.com for a while before RW started the monthly swap, but I never once had any issues with anyone having my name & addy. I can understand what you are saying though in regards to someone dodgy getting access to details. (Don't know about the data protection act, I think it's rather ott to bring that into it, but I'm not going there because I know feck all about it).

But surely this is something we could "police" ourselves. For example, you can join a swap only once you've been a member for three months AND made at least 50 posts. But perhaps this is something that should be applied to all swaps, and not just RW's lovely idea. On the other hand, it seems unfair to genuine newbies, which I'm sure is 99.9% of our new membership. We don't want to put off new members by being ott. I think I'm going round in circles now, but am trying to be sensible. :)

[Phree]

I think this has been blown out of all proportion, citing of the data protection act etc was not only irrelevant, but uncessary. By Lorraine's interrpretation, which is IMO inaccurate then the following scenario would be a breach of the law :

Your move home, it's 3 weeks before Christmas, you phone your sister and remind her of your new address.

Your best freind phones your sister later that day because you are out for the evening and she cant get an answer on your mobile. She is writing her christmas cards and needs your new address to send it to as she plans to drop her pile of cards in a post box on the way to work the next day - so sister obliges with the address

Question - has your sister just broken the law or is she covered by one of the exemptions? Now I know that she has not broken the law, that is why there are exemptions to the act.

The act itself never mentions your right to privacy - it's about protecting your data from mis-use, not actually guarnteeing it's total privacy.

Beleive me I pay attention to this stuff, why do you think my blog is written by Phree? Why do you think I discourage the use of my real name online? I doubt if anyone is more paranoid than I am about my personal privacy.

It is not actually illegal for one private individual to pass on an address to another private individual with out the subject's permission, it may be ethically wrong, but not actually illegal. However I am sure quite a few of you can testify to having received private messages from me in the past asking yoru permission to give out an address - I NEVER pass on anyone's information without asking. I trust that those of you who have my address will extend to me the same courtesy I do to you and respect my right to be asked if it is OK to pass on my address.

[LorraineJ]

We were all newbies once Lorraine. OK, we may have been around st.com for a while before RW started the monthly swap, but I never once had any issues with anyone having my name & addy. I can understand what you are saying though in regards to someone dodgy getting access to details. (Don't know about the data protection act, I think it's rather ott to bring that into it, but I'm not going there because I know feck all about it).

But surely this is something we could "police" ourselves. For example, you can join a swap only once you've been a member for three months AND made at least 50 posts. But perhaps this is something that should be applied to all swaps, and not just RW's lovely idea. On the other hand, it seems unfair to genuine newbies, which I'm sure is 99.9% of our new membership. We don't want to put off new members by being ott. I think I'm going round in circles now, but am trying to be sensible. :)

I think three months and making at least 50 posts is a bit OTT to be honest. I was thinking more along the lines of one or two posts, so we can get beyond the spam stage (and this forum has had a few recently) and people just enrolling to lift off personal info (a very good reason for it not being on open forum).

For the Secret Santa, Graham changed the rules so some newbies could join in (and they are very welcome I might add), because I pointed out we couldn't PM each other and Graham changed it so we could, as he agreed it was unfair to genuine newbies.

What does quite upset me is that RW must feel as if her lovely idea has been thrown up in her face. That was never my intention, I was trying to discuss things properly not hurt peoples feelings.

[LorraineJ]

I think this has been blown out of all proportion, citing of the data protection act etc was not only irrelevant, but uncessary. By Lorraine's interrpretation, which is IMO inaccurate then the following scenario would be a breach of the law :

Your move home, it's 3 weeks before Christmas, you phone your sister and remind her of your new address.

Your best freind phones your sister later that day because you are out for the evening and she cant get an answer on your mobile. She is writing her christmas cards and needs your new address to send it to as she plans to drop her pile of cards in a post box on the way to work the next day - so sister obliges with the address

Question - has your sister just broken the law or is she covered by one of the exemptions? Now I know that she has not broken the law, that is why there are exemptions to the act.

The act itself never mentions your right to privacy - it's about protecting your data from mis-use, not actually guarnteeing it's total privacy.

Beleive me I pay attention to this stuff, why do you think my blog is written by Phree? Why do you think I discourage the use of my real name online? I doubt if anyone is more paranoid than I am about my personal privacy.

It is not actually illegal for one private individual to pass on an address to another private individual with out the subject's permission, it may be ethically wrong, but not actually illegal. However I am sure quite a few of you can testify to having received private messages from me in the past asking yoru permission to give out an address - I NEVER pass on anyone's information without asking. I trust that those of you who have my address will extend to me the same courtesy I do to you and respect my right to be asked if it is OK to pass on my address.

Thats not my point at all Phree.

[Anne]

I think three months and making at least 50 posts is a bit OTT to be honest.

Most hilarious comment on this forum EVER.

[LorraineJ]

Most hilarious comment on this forum EVER.

Ehh :confused:


Whatever. :rolleyes: