Do you like the format of the C&C Shows?

[Craftyweebee]

An employee of Create and Craft (I believe he's something to do with E-Commerce) went on to the Lower P&P Charges on Create & Craft Facebook page and asked what members there thought was wrong with C&C.

Needless to say, he got a lot of feedback regarding various things but one thing that cropped up was the format of the shows where it seems that the presenters take over the show from guests - talking over them, interrupting demos, constant stock update, etc - you know the sort of thing. To paraphrase the response to this, he more or less said that they were not going to change the format of the shows as that was what worked for them and, basically, if you don't like what you see you can always switch off!

Oh and when the problems with the overseas call centre was brought up he commented that they want people to order online and not the phone.

He was asked to take the discussion on to the C&C Facebook page to give it a wider audience but his attitude and responses to constructive comments there was a disgrace and the whole thing then slid into the realms of ridiculous. If it was me and a member of my staff had spoken to any of my customers the way he did then his coat wouldn't just have been on a loose hook, it would have fallen off and he would have had his P45 in his sweaty little hands pronto!

C&C have now removed the discussion thread from their Wall (they had already removed the whole discussion section a few weeks ago so you could only post on the Wall) and he removed the original from the Lower P&P one. They have now "temporarily removed the ability to post to our wall" this is so members can't start new topics but can only comment on existing posts. Apparently they are "making changes to the process" - whatever that may mean!

If this was an example of a representative of C&C management then it doesn't say much for the rest of them!

[craftycat]

C&C if you are watching this, I have no intention of ordering over the phone because of cost of calls BUT whenever there is anything remotely special, like the craft day, the site crashes.

And I loathe the format of the shows. I want demonstrations from some of the very skilled folks you have definitely not rude interruptions part way through a demo!

Rand over!!

[Granny Penny]

I have to say that generally I like the format of the shows - I feel that generally we get great demonstrations considering they are a "shopping" channel and that is and has to be their prime motivation. I didn't see the Facebook thread but it seems a case of "don't ask the question if you are not going to like the reply". I can totally understand them wanting as many people as possible to order via the web - it keeps costs down but if this is what they are trying to do they need to improve the web site and by that I mean the functionality not the pretty bits.

I think you have to ask yourself how you would feel if we didn't have C & C - I for one would miss it very much.

[kitty]

:mysmilie_365:Sorry C and C, we just want to see the products and the many skilled demonstrators..! Will those chatty presenters just be quiet for 5 mins!

[Granny Penny]

It is strange Kitty, but they do seem to have got it right on the Clarity shows and when Sheena is given two hours. I think two hours makes it much more possible to do the detail at either end and then let the demos sell the product. I also think that the presenters "waffle" is sometimes to fill for a demonstrator who finds it difficult. This is often fine if the presenter is one of the crafters but not as easy for the presenter when they know less about it. Let's face it, you don't get many Sheena's or Barbara's in this world.

[Rentochops]

It is strange Kitty, but they do seem to have got it right on the Clarity shows and when Sheena is given two hours. I think two hours makes it much more possible to do the detail at either end and then let the demos sell the product. I also think that the presenters "waffle" is sometimes to fill for a demonstrator who finds it difficult. This is often fine if the presenter is one of the crafters but not as easy for the presenter when they know less about it. Let's face it, you don't get many Sheena's or Barbara's in this world.

I think the shows from Barbara and Sheena need time to demo the products otherwise it is difficult to imagine what you can do with what are really simple stamps or pieces of metal!

Whereas with a decoupage set or CD - the demo's aren't as significant I think as it is more obvious what you need to do with these - that's just my humble opinion. It's all about what sells a product really.

I like some shows, hate some, for me it really depends on the product not the guest or even the presenter (except Joanne who thankfully seems to have gone AWOL).

[englishminx]

For me its 2 things ...... the lack of competiveness on their prices and their dreadful customer services. The shows I think are great, some I like more than others, but at the end of the day its a shopping channel, and I enjoy the craft experts they have, and the main reason i dont buy as often as I would ....truthfully, because i can go get it cheaper somewhere else.

[elcee]

If C&C are working on that old adage 'If it ain't broke don't fix it' I believe they are missing out on a lot of tricks. I'm sure that there are many new people tuning in every day who don't know any better and lap up all the yak and repetitions and get excited when told that 7% of the stock has gone in the first 18 minutes and 3 seconds of the show. The stock gets sold and the bottom line is that all C&C are interested in is SELLING and more SELLING. All well and good but very short sighted. As the new crafters become more experienced they too will tire of the continual hype and hysteria. If C&C would just try giving one less stock update for each program would they really sell fewer items? Would it hurt them to give the demonstrator 5 more minutes uninterrupted time? No.

So let's keep up the chatter and use every opportunity we can to express our views. Eventually something may give. We got the reduced postage, remember, even if it means we don't get free postage events any more! And as for this miserable old bag, they are always there when I need company and I can usually find something on each program to moan about so I can't complain about that!

[budgie]

I don't know about anyone else, but these days when craft is on, I can't tell if I am watching create and craft or ideal world, both sides are hard sell with a few demos if you are lucky. I seem to remember the whole point of the create and craft channel was to give guests a chance to demo techniques with the products, so that crafters could learn how to use the products, and thus be encouraged to buy in a more relaxed atmosphere. When I first found c&c, I could have watched it 24 hours a day, there were a few live programmes, which were not very good. The live shows are better now, but what is missing is the pre-records where you could learn so much. The number of times I have watched in the middle of the night when I couldn't sleep, and have got out of bed to go and order the items I have just seen demonstrated, I can't count. That doesn't happen anymore. Now you have 5 hours of live programmes, most days I probably watch one or two hours.

I don't like all the hard sell, and most of all I don't like the presenters being rude to the guests by interupting them all the time with constant stock updates, or even more annoying endless emails. I saw some of the comments from this chap on facebook, and couldn't believe how he totally dismissed their customers comments. He has obviously not got a clue about customer service. IW need to send him on a course! He can't see anything wrong with the presenters interupting, twittering on etc, and defended their behaviour as they are only human and have feelings. I don't think that was ever in question, and I am certain that they are lovely people, but they shouldn't go on air and deliberately try to annoy c&c's customers. It is ok for rude man to tell us to turn off if we don't like it, (don't worry mate, we do!), but surely they should be wanting more people to watch, not less, so he shouldn't be alienating their customers. He has no intention of changing the format of the shows no matter what customers think. He obviously thinks he is god.

They are getting a bit complacent in my opinion. As the country is going digital, they are reaching more potential customers. They ought to remember though, that in a few years that source of new customers will come to an end. It wouldn't be a good idea to have annoyed good customers to the point that they no longer watch!

[crafty anne]

I like the format of the shows and agree with ROC, the shows that need more demo time do get it. I'm very supportive of C&C and would really hate to see them go, but doubt they will.

I've been following the FB fiasco for the past few weeks and I have to say that the main protagonists have openly said they don't buy from C&C and will always try to source their products elsewhere, no problem with that per se but I can kind of see why C&C wouldn't be too bothered if they did turn off. I did read on the "other" page one of them actually say she hoped that C&C went under and she would laugh if they did, again I kind of had a little bit of sympathy with C&C if they weren't too enamoured of her and her gang. They are also pretty nasty and personal about presenters, guests and other C&C members and use some very colourful language which doesn't do them any favours. Having said all that, I don't think C&C handled it very well at all, and to be honest I think they should just shut the whole page down.

Oh and I do question the people who claim they got the postage down, according to my source it was going to happen anyway.

[craftycat]

Crafty Anne, I think people complaining on forums like this one did have an influence on the Post and Packing reduction. When I had a telephone call to try to get me to renew my C&C club membership, I said one of the reasons for not renewing was the high level of P&P. Guy on the other end said that they were very aware that customers were unhappy and were addressing the issue. Still feel the multiply P&P is too high though!

I think it would be a great shame if C&C failed to exist. What would we all do on this forum for a start.

[sheilaj]

I don't know about anyone else, but these days when craft is on, I can't tell if I am watching create and craft or ideal world, both sides are hard sell with a few demos if you are lucky.

Are they not the same company then?

[Lindz]

I don't have a problem with the C & C format, the presenters are instructed through their ear pieces to give stock updates, and in some ways it is no bad thing that people can phone in and ask to see more of an item that has not been seen but is on the show list. I suppose they can't please everybody, but given their sucess, they are obviously pleasing more people than they upset. You certainly get far more demo's than on QVC, which is just a factory belt of items with the minimal time spent on them, which is understandable with just a couple of hours a week to sell as much as they can.

In the end, it is the item I buy not the presenters, or the channel, and because C & C give me more time on each item to see what it can do, I buy nearly all my supplies from them, or Joanna Sheen's online shop. I've never had a delivery problem so no reason for me to bad mouth them, but we just go on our own experiences. I'm not interested in facebook, or some fool who can't be polite to people, which is what it sounds like, and by the way, are they really from Ideal World and C & C, or just someone who needs to get out more often.

[Mystic Mog]

Lindz, I agree with just about everything you said. I actually felt quite sorry for the bloke from C&C. I work for a customer service contact centre and I can tell you that hardly anyone bothers to get in touch to say we've got it right; the guy came across, to me, as genuinely trying to find out what could be done to help in future and he got a lot of grief about things that had already been changed (the "monthly" free gift) and a couple of people really seemed to have it in for the company - so if you don't buy from them, and will never buy from them, why do you care?

I miss the pre-records: I used to buy more because I got to see a product demonstrated and could see how I might use it, whereas now if something sells out there's no demo. But I still watch, and still buy if it's something I really want and I can't be bothered to shop around or can't find the items I want in one place (P&P from a number of places adds up and there aren't that many that offer free P&P). And as Craftycat has said, what would we talk about here?

[Granny Penny]

Mystic Mog the pre-recorded shows sound like a good idea but they were before I started to watch Create and Craft. With You Tube and lots of companies making their own "TV" demonstrations that you can see on the internet it might be a good idea for C & C to consider bringing them back. I suppose the problem is turnover; they will not want to hold any more stock than they have to. I have just ordered Nesties Labels 7 (from Rich) prompted by the last time Sheena was demonstrating them - I do not want to be rushed as we have been with this weeks POW nor do I necessarily want to buy a pre-decided bundle. I do wonder, if they are looking to grow, whether they would not be better extending the facility to the companies to make their own programmes which could be shown on demand.

[Millburn]

I love some bits and dislike other bits, the same with the presenters, I'll turn off some shows because of the mix, tape and rewatch other shows, again the mix, guest/product/presenter, and watch some because I like the presenter, guest or the product.

On a good demo I don't really want to hear stock-up dates, I don't care if in 35 minutes they've sold 45% of the stock, tell me when they've sold 70% in 35 minutes, that I need to know to decide to switch on the computer and buy

The good demos have added to my knowledge and take me out of my "comfort zone" and encourage me to buy more, I will, once we've moved and settled be buying a bug and lots of Nesties (Sheena :tongue: all your fault) and the House Mouse Stamps; but please don't C&C & IW don't take the micheal on price, and why not work it so that any order over a certain amount say £100 is free, with this weeks POW the nesties, it would probably get people buying an extra set

C&C is my window into learning about crafting and techniques, I live too far from most things, nearest craft shop is over 30 miles away, and I'm semi housebound, so even getting to a craft demo, I'd be exhausted before I started

[craftycat]

I'm lucky in that I have the time to google and search for the best price. But, sorry Mystic Mog, can't agree about the free P&P not being available. Quite a few places offer it, a lot of others give free P&P if the order is over a certain amount. Unless I need something urgently I would sooner build up my order, then when it reaches the freebie point send off for it. A couple of multiple order P&Ps on C&C soon add up and the money could be better used elsewhere.

[crafty anne]

Totally agree with Mystic Mog, I don't understand why anyone would waste their time making such a fuss over a company that they refuse to buy from, I think they are just having fun all being strident ladies together.

The pre-records were good some of the time, again it's whether you like the programme. Apparently they just weren't making the money though, so it begs the question whether broadcasting a long, uninterrupted demo is more profitable for C&C than the format they have at the moment. My guess is the latter. If their profits go down then maybe we'll see a change in the format, or maybe they'll just go bust so that will please a few on facebook! Seriously, I think that C&C may be sold in a couple of years time, maybe sooner and if it is an American company that buys it up then we'll probably end up with a completely different format, perhaps more like QVC, or maybe the new owners will want to keep it the way it is because it is working - time will tell :)

[Craftyweebee]

I'm not interested in facebook, or some fool who can't be polite to people, which is what it sounds like, and by the way, are they really from Ideal World and C & C, or just someone who needs to get out more often.

He was from Create and Craft because when he moved the thread over to the C&C website when he replied it was the Create & Craft user ID that came up and not his own which he had used on the other site.

[budgie]

Are they not the same company then?

Yes they are the same company. IW used to do the hard sell though, whereas it was more relaxed and more time for demos on create and craft. The majority of c&c programmes were pre-recorded, and were packed with demos, no stock updates, and the presenters weren't interrupting the guest all the time with emails or whatever. It was a great place to learn from, and none of the if it sells out the guest can't do the demo malarkey! If it sold out, I just used to take the number and keep checking until it came back into stock. I used to like to record some of the programmes to keep, especially when it was someone like Glenda, who did some of the most amazing demos. Really miss watching her. Would love to have Barbara or Sheena or Sue in a similar format.

I agree about some of the people on face book just being downright nasty. If they don't buy from c&c I don't see what right they have to complain, and to actually hope that the company will go under is despicable. Why would anybody want so many people to be put out of work? However, a lot of genuine c&c customers are unhappy, so for mr rude man to dismiss their complaints is not on either.

[LoobyLou]

I beg to disagree on a couple of points. Firstly I think that now they have lowered their postage that the mutliple postage is excellent value for money. Okay, it's not free like it is a lot of places online but then it's not QVC exhorbitant rates either!

Also as regards the presenters and their constant interruptions. I have no problem with them pointing out that x% of stock X has sold. What does annoy me is all the bloody waffle that goes with it. I do not need to hear Martyn's opinion of what else I can do with the sheet of card that someone was about to show me anyway just so he can bang on about how much of it has sold. All they need to say is 10% of this stock has gone now, and whilst the person demoing is applying glue or something boring they could hold up the product. They could even hold up the product during the interesting bits if they just shut up wittering on about inane crap. Cut out the bloody emails. They serve no purpose other than to get someone mentioned on the telly and interrupt what was a useful tip.

In short postage okayish now. Presenters a necessary evil but only for relevant short precise stock updates. Reminiscences about Martyn's childhood, Dennice special needs Daughter or anything Joanne has to say, a complete waste of airtime.

[Snow]

[QUOTE

I think it would be a great shame if C&C failed to exist. What would we all do on this forum for a start.[/QUOTE]

I think if C & C shut down you would find more companies getting demonstrators to post videos on places like UTube. Some are already doing this and forums would be the way for us to let each other know when the new ones come out and talk about them. Shops would also start to upload videos and as more and more people get the internet and more buy online places like C & C will find they are not able to sell enough to survive. Lots of us already look for the videos for demonstrations of items and also for techniques.

Snow

[Millburn]

Snow, that's fine for some, maybe even most, but many still don't have the internet, and many don't use things like Ytube, personally I only use it when refered by people I know, and as for facebook, devil/spawn/dangerous/kids; many wee shop owners are of an age where the internet is difficult; I'm only 48, computers at school for me were programming on cards similar to Lottery tickets, 1 per line of programme; often being return because you'd scored in the word grint instead of print

I want the chance to touch products knowing I can return it, and I want ot interact, as I would if I had a craft shop with-in usable distance

[Rentochops]

Ziggy and Luceting, blimey whoever thought that would make a good show :), sorry random comment in an excellent debate!

[Snow]

Snow, that's fine for some, maybe even most, but many still don't have the internet, and many don't use things like Ytube, personally I only use it when refered by people I know, and as for facebook, devil/spawn/dangerous/kids; many wee shop owners are of an age where the internet is difficult; I'm only 48, computers at school for me were programming on cards similar to Lottery tickets, 1 per line of programme; often being return because you'd scored in the word grint instead of print

I want the chance to touch products knowing I can return it, and I want ot interact, as I would if I had a craft shop with-in usable distance

I'll be 53 soon!! gosh where did the years go. It was not long ago that most people would not order online and now it is and everyday thing for more and more people. Distance selling regulations mean that you can send back any item it once you get it home and touch it change your mind as long as you do within seven days.

Snow

[rembrandt]

When I first found C&C online, the shows were so different, I didn't even realize that it was a shopping channel! Although I still enjoy it, and have learned a great deal- I don't ever purchase anything, because of the postage cost! I realize that because I am in the USA it would be more, but I would have to want something AWFULLY bad to pay 20 pounds!!(sorry, my computer doesn't have the little pounds sign on it-it's an american computer :giggle:) This works out to $30!! The first time they had a show with extra special shipping, silly me, I thought that meant that my shipping would go down too! No such luck! There are a few things I would love to have that I can't find here, but mostly I just go onto Joanna Sheen's online shop, where she will ship to me for free! I can't beat that! Plus, she ships faster than many of the companies I do business with in my own country! lol - Joanna is not the only place with great shipping, I just noticed that Sharon Duncan will only charge me 4pounds to ship! Sigh.....oh well.....if anyone knows of anyplace that sells Sheena's stamps that will ship to America for a good price....please let me know!! One of the things I am DESPERATE to find!!!
God Bless!

[kitty]

Hi Rembrandt! Wow! that shipping is steep from c&c. Joanna is fab, that's true! I'm not sure about where to get Sheena's stamps shipped to you, but I'm sure someone on the forum will know!:sun:

[rembrandt]

Thanks much! I do know that Sharon Duncan's sight has a few of the Creative Expressions line.....but I need MORE!!

[craftycat]

As far as P&P goes, maybe it is a case of what other sites we order from. Some I choose not to use because of high P&P.

Most of my regular sites do free P&P in a lowish minimum order. Of the others;

Clarity is a standard £3 regardless of size of order
Craftysuperstores is £2.95, free over £40
PDA is £1.50 to £4, free over £40
Craftbarn is £1 to £4 and free over £40 (I think)

So all lower than C&C. Of course you have to allow for the fact that a C&C order would only be one P&P charge but quite often I couldn't get all I want with them anyway. I would probably buy a lot more though if there was free P&P over £40 or so. Think I have said before, where there is a "free over" amount, I tend to let my order build up until I need that amount of goods.

[LoobyLou]

Rembrant vis-a-vis sheena's stamps, have you thought of contacting the godess herself and asking what she would charge to the US, or there are some excellent sellers on ebay who ship free in the UK and might therefore be reasonable for shipping to the US!

[tourmaline]

I would definitely miss C&C if it weren't on air. I much prefer it to QVC which is too much hard-selling and not enough demo-ing. I think C&C's postage is not too bad - if I can, I try to top up with essentials to take advantage of the capped postage. I like most of the C&C presenters but agree some do waffle on too much and talk over the guest. Perhaps they could just flash up the stock updates on sceen instead. If the guests were more like Sara from Crafters Companion, who take control of the show and not leave all the talk to the presenters, perhaps we would see more demo-ing and less inane chatter. That said, some of the presenter/guest combinations can be very entertaining, whereas others can be a complete nightmare to watch and cringe-makingly embarrassing.

[dita]

I'd miss C&C if it were to go, but I often get fed up with it and don't watch it nearly as much as I did a few years back. I think in amongst the jewels on C&C there is an awful lot of dross! I also think that the products that C&C seem to showcase - like Clarity, Spellbinders and My Craft Studio etc should be treated differently to other products. With Clarity and Spellbinders there ought to be more demo time, no emails (or emails limited to a key question)and stock updates kept to a minimum. I think MCS should be treated more like a tutorial - and the same would apply if they get any more Serif products. I like to watch and learn and the presenters do my head in when they start reading emails during a demonstration - I think it is rude to the guest and the viewers. In fact, the whole email thing does my head in, and if they have to have them, I wish they would do as QVC does and run them along the bottom of the screen.

[Rentochops]

I'd miss C&C if it were to go, but I often get fed up with it and don't watch it nearly as much as I did a few years back. I think in amongst the jewels on C&C there is an awful lot of dross! I also think that the products that C&C seem to showcase - like Clarity, Spellbinders and My Craft Studio etc should be treated differently to other products. With Clarity and Spellbinders there ought to be more demo time, no emails (or emails limited to a key question)and stock updates kept to a minimum. I think MCS should be treated more like a tutorial - and the same would apply if they get any more Serif products. I like to watch and learn and the presenters do my head in when they start reading emails during a demonstration - I think it is rude to the guest and the viewers. In fact, the whole email thing does my head in, and if they have to have them, I wish they would do as QVC does and run them along the bottom of the screen.

They don't really demo MCS, I don't think they dare as all the parts don't work on everyone's computers, I think they are very bad at showing the images on these CD's as well, they seem to involve dragging varied amounts of clip art onto the screen all at one time and showing you stationary sets and then how to stick a card together - I am surprised that many people buy them at all. The samples are very good though (ahem not just saying that cos of the peeps on here that make them).

Does anyone listen to the e-mails? I only like it when Leonie tries to say names and anyone from here e-mails!

[crafty anne]

I would love it if MCS were given more time to show how to actually design using the program. Nancy has done a bit from time to time but they usually cut her short. I would just love it if she was allowed to show us how she does her stuff on the PC more. I saw her at Sandown and she showed me how to build a topper, group it, copy it, paste it and then change it slightly so she ended up with 6 different toppers all on one page. I don't think that the images on MCS are clipart, there is really beautiful artwork on their CDs, but agree when Diane just crowds all the images so quickly on it gets very confusing. The stationery sets are nice but for me it is the images and the other bits and pieces they include to make our own designs that sell it for me. I suppose that would take far too long for a demo and Diane doing the PC does seem to sell loads so probably no chance of it happening.

[craftycat]

"I don't think that the images on MCS are clipart, there is really beautiful artwork on their CDs"

Just because the images are beautiful, doesn't stop them being clip art which is used to describe any image taken from elsewhere and added to a document, article, greetings card........

I love the images on MCS cds too. At least on the ones I own but won't be going in for the professional format ones. I really need to see some decent demos about what you can do with the basic format. Preferably by someone who speaks slowly and doesn't try to do too much too quickly with the computer screen demonstrations.

[crafty anne]

"Just because the images are beautiful, doesn't stop them being clip art which is used to describe any image taken from elsewhere and added to a document, article, greetings card........"

Hi CC, I stand corrected, I'd always thought of clip art as the kind of thing you can download from the internet, sort of cartoony style and very 1 dimensional and naive.

I definitely agree with your last paragraph!

[craftycat]

Didn't mean to sound as though I was on a soap box crafty anne. I think a lot of people think of clip art as nasty cartoony stuff!

Maybe we crafting fanatics can come up with a more artistic term

[crafty anne]

You didn't sound like you were on a soap box at all CC. I think it is just me being a bit snobby! I always seem to think that the likes of Debbie Moore's CDs are clip art, i.e downloaded from the internet in a massive downloading session then chucked out at 3 for a fiver! I think MCS is more like "artwork" that they either have to buy in or commission.

[craftycat]

You didn't sound like you were on a soap box at all CC. I think it is just me being a bit snobby! I always seem to think that the likes of Debbie Moore's CDs are clip art, i.e downloaded from the internet in a massive downloading session then chucked out at 3 for a fiver! I think MCS is more like "artwork" that they either have to buy in or commission.

Totally agree with you there. Joanna Sheen's CDs are a bit more upmarket as well! I said on another thread that I seem to make two sorts of cards. The grunge and artistic ones for my use, plus for the family to raid when they are around. Then the ones I make for charity outlets. Not my taste at all but they sell well!

[rembrandt]

Rembrant vis-a-vis sheena's stamps, have you thought of contacting the godess herself and asking what she would charge to the US, or there are some excellent sellers on ebay who ship free in the UK and might therefore be reasonable for shipping to the US!

Thanks LoobyLou! I don't do much on ebay, so I'll have to check it out! As far as contacting Sheena - I guess I was a bit too starstruck to even think of doing that, but now I will! The crafters that I love the most all seem to be so friendly and down to earth, one of the many reasons why I love them!

[keiko1]

we don't order from C+C anymore because of the attitude of the customer service staff. I had a real fiasco just trying to get a parcel delivered to work, only to be talked down to by customer service woman that I should make sure there is somewhere for delivery man to park. Shame that there were 2 car parks and 2 delivery yards and he refused to use any......
As for the programmes, we normally see some of the repeats in the evening but mostly only tape and watch the main people we like ie Barbara Grey, Nigel and Hazel, Joanna Sheen, Sheena.
We don't mind MCS if its Diane or Nancy showing it, but won't watch anything with Steph as she drives us mad acting like a 3 year old.
What C+C really need is a rival to compete against, as they are the only full craft channel over here.

[blarf]

For me the proof is in the spending - I think C&C have better products but I never buy from them.
I like the demos but I just wish I did have to wait until 20 past the hour for them to start. I almost always record and FF to the demos now.